Homosexuals and salvation

[Imalive]

How many christians are there who really believe that their old man died w Christ and they got a new nature and who have victory over sin? The majority still believes they have a sin nature and have to sin.
One homosexual said: if you sin you get grace for everything. Why not me? I could stop smoking but I cant stop this. The double standard is so weird. One guy, his parents had to have sex before marriage, unclean demon comes in thanks to them and they tell him he's sinful and has to stay celebate. I said tell em to divorce and not have sex anymore themselves. Jerks. I hate that double standard.

 

[Imalive]

One guy on a Dutch forum once. Dont dare try to help someone there or the heteros get mad and tell em its fine, just accept yourself. He said he watched porn and he wasnt homosexual first, but after that he got all these homosexual thoughts and feelings, but he had a girlfriend and wanted to marry. Everybody: oh you're just homosexual. Accept yourself. I didnt even dare post. I sent him a pm to help him know his new nature in Christ and yes if you watch that filth unclean demons come in that need to be kicked out. He was happy w it.

 

[MennoSota]

People are getting side tracked.
There is only one sexual behavior approved by God. That is sex between one woman and one man within a lifelong union. God says that the man and woman become one in sexual unity. This makes sex within marriage an act of spiritual worship that honors God. All other forms are perversions and acts that worship self. This means those sexual acts are idolatrous and hated by God. It matters not whether those acts are hetero, homo, or something other, they are heinous and idolatrous acts that God hates. Let that sink in.
Despite our wickedness, God still chooses to extend his grace to sinners. How amazing is that?!

 

[Andrew]

People are getting side tracked.
There is only one sexual behavior approved by God. That is sex between one woman and one man within a lifelong union. God says that the man and woman become one in sexual unity. This makes sex within marriage an act of spiritual worship that honors God. All other forms are perversions and acts that worship self. This means those sexual acts are idolatrous and hated by God. It matters not whether those acts are hetero, homo, or something other, they are heinous and idolatrous acts that God hates. Let that sink in.
Despite our wickedness, God still chooses to extend his grace to sinners. How amazing is that?!

Great post, so homosexuals are saved by the grace of God (of course by acceptance of Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior)

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[MennoSota]

Great post, so homosexuals are saved by the grace of God (of course by acceptance of Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior)

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All humans can only be saved by grace. All humans struggle with temptation and idolatry, regardless of their eternal status with God. There are many things God hates that we fail him on everyday. Yet, we as a society hone in on some sins and treat them as much worse than others. It is our own sinful pride that does this in an attempt to claim spiritual superiority. It's a vile thing and insidious in that it makes itself so self-righteous in its justification.

 

[tango]

Exactly. It's also one of the saddest issues seeing that they cannot help it if it's 100% who they are and what they are, consuming every aspect of their lifestyle, many are pushed into suicide, a bit of a toxic combo 'homosexuality and Christian belief'. I saw something on TV once, I guy gave his testimony on his death bed (dying of AIDS) in complete despair... well he said he got saved and denounced his homosexuality yet he was still flamboyant and spoke with a lisp... just saying I don't believe they can change that. Maybe it was something to do with homosexual pagan rituals exclusively but not against homosexuality in general, just a thought albeit a contradicting one.
Does arsenokoitai really mean homosexuality? If not than is homosexuality as sin? And if yes then can they be justified by Mercy and Grace?
Such an odd dilemma to put on someones soul. I believe they can still be gay and saved and I'll leave the rest with Jesus to deal with them because we can only push them off the edge.

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Perhaps upon conversion God will take away the desires. Perhaps God will leave the desires and simply expect us to not act upon them.

As you say the sad part is when something becomes a defining part of one's identity, such that to take it away is effectively to rob someone of their very identity. I'm a heterosexual man but neither my gender nor my inclination are a defining part of who I am - I prefer to reserve that for my general outlook on life, my hobbies, my skills, things I believe in and so on. There certainly isn't much among that collection that couldn't be shared by a gay man, a straight woman, a lesbian, a transgendered person, and so on.

The trouble with identity politics is that so much of it is about finding areas in which you are Not Like Me that it becomes incredibly divisive. The growing portion of alphabet soup used to describe those who don't fall neatly into the cisgender-heterosexual mold (some call it the QUILTBAG community) does nobody any favors simply because the only thing that can be said about the community (if it can even be called a community) is that it is a group of people who are different in some way. Focussing purely on matters of gender identity and sexual orientation I, as a straight man, have more in common with a lesbian than with a gay man in that I understand what it is like to be sexually attracted to a woman. There's no reason why I shouldn't share hobbies, interests, political outlooks, skills etc with someone who is transgendered, someone of a different sexual orientation, a different race, whatever. Therefore there is no reason why I shouldn't sit and talk with someone who is different in some way but focus on the things that unite us. As soon as identity politics gets involved the focus is on what divides us and much of the rhetoric suggests I can't have anything in common with a lesbian because we share neither a gender nor a sexual orientation.

One guy I know casually is a gay man and also a Christian. He believes a physical homosexual relationship would be sinful so he remains celibate by choice. His desires are towards other men but he chooses not to act upon them. I find it very hard not to respect him.

 

[Imalive]

Perhaps upon conversion God will take away the desires. Perhaps God will leave the desires and simply expect us to not act upon them.

As you say the sad part is when something becomes a defining part of one's identity, such that to take it away is effectively to rob someone of their very identity. I'm a heterosexual man but neither my gender nor my inclination are a defining part of who I am - I prefer to reserve that for my general outlook on life, my hobbies, my skills, things I believe in and so on. There certainly isn't much among that collection that couldn't be shared by a gay man, a straight woman, a lesbian, a transgendered person, and so on.

The trouble with identity politics is that so much of it is about finding areas in which you are Not Like Me that it becomes incredibly divisive. The growing portion of alphabet soup used to describe those who don't fall neatly into the cisgender-heterosexual mold (some call it the QUILTBAG community) does nobody any favors simply because the only thing that can be said about the community (if it can even be called a community) is that it is a group of people who are different in some way. Focussing purely on matters of gender identity and sexual orientation I, as a straight man, have more in common with a lesbian than with a gay man in that I understand what it is like to be sexually attracted to a woman. There's no reason why I shouldn't share hobbies, interests, political outlooks, skills etc with someone who is transgendered, someone of a different sexual orientation, a different race, whatever. Therefore there is no reason why I shouldn't sit and talk with someone who is different in some way but focus on the things that unite us. As soon as identity politics gets involved the focus is on what divides us and much of the rhetoric suggests I can't have anything in common with a lesbian because we share neither a gender nor a sexual orientation.

One guy I know casually is a gay man and also a Christian. He believes a physical homosexual relationship would be sinful so he remains celibate by choice. His desires are towards other men but he chooses not to act upon them. I find it very hard not to respect him.

I know one christian guy from a forum who calls himself gay cause he's not attracted to women. He said after he got born again he just refused those thoughts and rarely gets em anymore.

 

[Andrew]

I know one christian guy from a forum who calls himself gay cause he's not attracted to women. He said after he got born again he just refused those thoughts and rarely gets em anymore.

Asexual maybe

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[MennoSota]

Perhaps upon conversion God will take away the desires. Perhaps God will leave the desires and simply expect us to not act upon them.

As you say the sad part is when something becomes a defining part of one's identity, such that to take it away is effectively to rob someone of their very identity. I'm a heterosexual man but neither my gender nor my inclination are a defining part of who I am - I prefer to reserve that for my general outlook on life, my hobbies, my skills, things I believe in and so on. There certainly isn't much among that collection that couldn't be shared by a gay man, a straight woman, a lesbian, a transgendered person, and so on.

The trouble with identity politics is that so much of it is about finding areas in which you are Not Like Me that it becomes incredibly divisive. The growing portion of alphabet soup used to describe those who don't fall neatly into the cisgender-heterosexual mold (some call it the QUILTBAG community) does nobody any favors simply because the only thing that can be said about the community (if it can even be called a community) is that it is a group of people who are different in some way. Focussing purely on matters of gender identity and sexual orientation I, as a straight man, have more in common with a lesbian than with a gay man in that I understand what it is like to be sexually attracted to a woman. There's no reason why I shouldn't share hobbies, interests, political outlooks, skills etc with someone who is transgendered, someone of a different sexual orientation, a different race, whatever. Therefore there is no reason why I shouldn't sit and talk with someone who is different in some way but focus on the things that unite us. As soon as identity politics gets involved the focus is on what divides us and much of the rhetoric suggests I can't have anything in common with a lesbian because we share neither a gender nor a sexual orientation.

One guy I know casually is a gay man and also a Christian. He believes a physical homosexual relationship would be sinful so he remains celibate by choice. His desires are towards other men but he chooses not to act upon them. I find it very hard not to respect him.

The man-made concept of sexual orientation is never discussed in scripture. Temptation is discussed and the variety of temptations knows no end. As Christians we are called to turn our gaze upon Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith. The Bible tells us our way of escape, but often we want the idolatrous sin rather than God. This is why we are told to confess our sins before God so that God will faithfully forgive us. (1 John 1:9)

 

[tango]

I know one christian guy from a forum who calls himself gay cause he's not attracted to women. He said after he got born again he just refused those thoughts and rarely gets em anymore.

It's great if he is no longer tempted, but I wouldn't assume that anyone could go the rest of their life free from temptation. Even Jesus was tempted, so I think we fool ourselves if we think the devil won't even try to bring us down.

 

[tango]

The man-made concept of sexual orientation is never discussed in scripture. Temptation is discussed and the variety of temptations knows no end. As Christians we are called to turn our gaze upon Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith. The Bible tells us our way of escape, but often we want the idolatrous sin rather than God. This is why we are told to confess our sins before God so that God will faithfully forgive us. (1 John 1:9)

That's an interesting way to put it, and fits nicely with the concept of having specific desires that others might not experience but the underlying issue being a matter of what we do about desires rather than the specifics of the desires we do feel.

 

[MennoSota]

That's an interesting way to put it, and fits nicely with the concept of having specific desires that others might not experience but the underlying issue being a matter of what we do about desires rather than the specifics of the desires we do feel.

What do we do when our desires are contrary to God's expressed will? Do we worship our self (which is a very natural thing to do) or do we worship God in obedience?
That is the essence of our everyday, ordinary, lives. We are tasked with giving God glory in all we say and do, but our nature fights against the Spirit so that there is always tension (Romans 7). Praise God that by His grace we do not stand condemned (Romans 8).

 

[tango]

What do we do when our desires are contrary to God's expressed will? Do we worship our self (which is a very natural thing to do) or do we worship God in obedience?
That is the essence of our everyday, ordinary, lives. We are tasked with giving God glory in all we say and do, but our nature fights against the Spirit so that there is always tension (Romans 7). Praise God that by His grace we do not stand condemned (Romans 8).

Exactly, and in that regard the temptation to indulge in homosexual activity is inherent no different to the temptation to indulge in inappropriate heterosexual activity, or indeed the temptation to steal from our employer, get drunk, fiddle our taxes or whatever else might lure us away from God's path.

 

[MennoSota]

Exactly, and in that regard the temptation to indulge in homosexual activity is inherent no different to the temptation to indulge in inappropriate heterosexual activity, or indeed the temptation to steal from our employer, get drunk, fiddle our taxes or whatever else might lure us away from God's path.

Right!

 

[Imalive]

Exactly, and in that regard the temptation to indulge in homosexual activity is inherent no different to the temptation to indulge in inappropriate heterosexual activity, or indeed the temptation to steal from our employer, get drunk, fiddle our taxes or whatever else might lure us away from God's path.

Except hetero's can marry if they really have to and still have sex, just not the filth. Abstain isn't for everyone said Paul. Yet he encouraged those former homosexuals who were set free to marry someone from the opposite sex if they didnt have that gift. Guess there was a little bit more power in the first church than in most churches. I have more understanding for homo's than hetero's just being too lazy to marry tbh or they first want a fancy house and a fancy wedding and wait a few years. You can't really compare that.

 

[Imalive]

https://youtu.be/J5WxzcYfKiI

 

[Josiah]

DISCLAIMER..... I have zero special knowledge of such things and I'm certain less insight than most. But like all, I certainly have among my circle of friends several with a "same sex orientation."


Two thoughts.....


1. It appears most are simply born ("wired" lol) toward heterosexuality. Biologically, this seems predictable (a species existence depends on it, lol). And I don't think one can change this no matter what (I'm certain that's the case with me). I do think this is the "norm" (but that doesn't equate to "normal"). I think some (I suspect it's a LOT less than some would have us think) are the opposite: they are oriented to the same gender. I've read this could be about 1-2% of the male population, probably less among the females. While this is not the norm (in that it is very rare and since counter-productive in terms of biology) I would not equate it with abnormal. I think we're talking a fairly small percentage. I understand this is found in many mammals, not just humans. And it's found throughout history and in all cultures - sometimes openly, sometimes very secretively. MY evaluation is simply: what is, is. Not much more.


2. I SUSPECT there are some who are bi-sexual, but who may "lean" toward one (in the vast majority of cases, to the other gender); they have some same gender "feelings" although it may be overwhelmed by other gender feelings. I've read that some mammals become same gender when deprived of the other gender - and this perhaps simply shows this bisexual quality in some. I have no clue what percentage of the population we're talking about, and since the range of such is VAST, it might be impossible to determine the percentage. This IS a "choice" but I doubt it's ever a "free choice" in that one simply equally chooses between two options that they see before them, but obviously society has a large impact on this. I suspect there is a huge range of such bisexuality - from equally strong to perhaps never perceived at all. And I wonder if it doesn't present itself primarily among teens who are "figuring it out" and perhaps are doing the "choosing" (however unconsciencely). I wonder, too, is this isn't what's behind the "convert" stories (actually, one is just changing which orientation they are running with) and also why (especially in the past) people often married, had kids and a perfectly normal marriage sex life even though perhaps they had same-sex feelings, too. Again, there is "choice" here (choosing which orientation to go with) but I doubt this is ever a "free" one but a very, very complex thing that may not even be full or final. IMO, this reality is circumvented because of that difficult "choice" issue - no one wants to deal with that, thus everyone likes to frame the entire discussion in terms of the biological absolutes in #1 above.





I earlier posted to the issue....

1. Yes, ALL of us deserve nothing but eternal punishment if hell. ALL of us. Yes, those guilty of sexual sins (like visiting one of THOSE sites.... like having an impure thought about that girl in Calc class.... yup, they desire to FRY. But then so do those guilty of having ever regarded self as more important than our neighbor or those who ate poorly at the Golden Corral. We ALL deserve to FRY forever in hell. And if we want to start throwing rocks around, it might be good to note we are made of glass.


2. A MESS is created when Law and Gospel are confused and blended..... we end up being little hypocritical Pharisees OR we end up with a terrified conscience.


3. IMO, people are often most sensitive in the very moral issue they themselves are perhaps most guilty and where they struggle the most. A lot of people SECRETLY nurture their sexual thoughts...... like those special secret websites.... and then try to find someone they THINK is ever badder than self so that self can hold up self and say to self, "Well, at least I'm not as bad as THEM!!!!!" As if God grades on a curve.....


4. I don't know why sexual sins get SO much attention (well... see # 3 above). I actually think the Bible may well condemn gluttony more often and boldly than it does homosexual acts. But where is the outcry over the 300 pound pastor? Where is the picketing of the "After Church" invasion of Home Town Buffet and all those Christians with 4,000 calories on their plate from just their first trip to the buffet? Where is the condemnation at the church potluck as George goes back for his 4th dessert? [Yes, I realize overweight isn't necessarily because of gluttony - but you get my point, OBVIOUSLY]. The opposite principle may be at work here: Some may say nothing about gluttony because they wish to give a "pass" on this (so as to not to condemn self) or the opposite: I may point it out because I have very little body fat and if anything am a bit underweight and I'm pretty uber-careful about my diet - thus feel SUPERIOR to so many others whom I may crush with my legalistic rocks (I DO have my sins, btw).


5. A proper application of Law and Gospel is needed..... and that needs to be PERSONAL.



.

- Josiah




.

 

[Imalive]

DISCLAIMER..... I have zero special knowledge of such things and I'm certain less insight than most. But like all, I certainly have among my circle of friends several with a "same sex orientation."


Two thoughts.....


1. It appears most are simply born ("wired" lol) toward heterosexuality. Biologically, this seems predictable (a species existence depends on it, lol). And I don't think one can change this no matter what (I'm certain that's the case with me). I do think this is the "norm" (but that doesn't equate to "normal"). I think some (I suspect it's a LOT less than some would have us think) are the opposite: they are oriented to the same gender. I've read this could be about 1-2% of the male population, probably less among the females. While this is not the norm (in that it is very rare and since counter-productive in terms of biology) I would not equate it with abnormal. I think we're talking a fairly small percentage. I understand this is found in many mammals, not just humans. And it's found throughout history and in all cultures - sometimes openly, sometimes very secretively. MY evaluation is simply: what is, is. Not much more.


2. I SUSPECT there are some who are bi-sexual, but who may "lean" toward one (in the vast majority of cases, to the other gender); they have some same gender "feelings" although it may be overwhelmed by other gender feelings. I've read that some mammals become same gender when deprived of the other gender - and this perhaps simply shows this bisexual quality in some. I have no clue what percentage of the population we're talking about, and since the range of such is VAST, it might be impossible to determine the percentage. This IS a "choice" but I doubt it's ever a "free choice" in that one simply equally chooses between two options that they see before them, but obviously society has a large impact on this. I suspect there is a huge range of such bisexuality - from equally strong to perhaps never perceived at all. And I wonder if it doesn't present itself primarily among teens who are "figuring it out" and perhaps are doing the "choosing" (however unconsciencely). I wonder, too, is this isn't what's behind the "convert" stories (actually, one is just changing which orientation they are running with) and also why (especially in the past) people often married, had kids and a perfectly normal marriage sex life even though perhaps they had same-sex feelings, too. Again, there is "choice" here (choosing which orientation to go with) but I doubt this is ever a "free" one but a very, very complex thing that may not even be full or final. IMO, this reality is circumvented because of that difficult "choice" issue - no one wants to deal with that, thus everyone likes to frame the entire discussion in terms of the biological absolutes in #1 above.





I earlier posted to the issue....






- Josiah




.

Emphasis I think because you have to flee sexual immorality and w the rest you dont sin against the body, yes or because ppl just want to point fingers and are hypocrit and yes it doesnt mean the rest shouldnt be warned for.
But why there needs to be focus on sexual sin: ppl fall from their faith en masse because of it. So many ppl here in Holland who live together. They are not saved and noone bothers to warn em from the pulpit. They think it's okay. That is so dangerous, the false teachings saying it's okay. I fell for that too. God gave me a dream about it then. It was scary. I remember in that dream that I said to someone: why doesnt anyone warn em? Young girls, they were jumping happily into it, no sense whatsoever of danger.
Especially in Holland I think it's the main reason ppl fall away. They want a partner and almost noone wants to do that Biblical, so you can choose between sinning or staying alone.

http://www.inthebeginning.com/articles/norway1968.htm

 

[MennoSota]

Except hetero's can marry if they really have to and still have sex, just not the filth. Abstain isn't for everyone said Paul. Yet he encouraged those former homosexuals who were set free to marry someone from the opposite sex if they didnt have that gift. Guess there was a little bit more power in the first church than in most churches. I have more understanding for homo's than hetero's just being too lazy to marry tbh or they first want a fancy house and a fancy wedding and wait a few years. You can't really compare that.

We need to understand that sinners will be sinners apart from the grace of God. It is natural for humans to feed their self pleasures, whatever they may be.
Christians are called to glorify God in all they do. Failure to worship God is wrong. We cannot serve two masters. We worship God by obeying...even when obedience goes against our self pleasures. We struggle against flesh desires when the Spirit of God stands opposed to those desires.
Unsaved can and will feed their flesh with no concern. Saved will struggle to let God kill their flesh. Lordship is a part of God sanctifying us.
With Christian brothers and sisters, we point each other toward obedience and walking in the Spirit (Galatians 6). With the unsaved, we point them toward reconciliation with God and leaving their rebellion against God (they need to surrender).

 

[JRT]

Since the homosexual orientation lies within the normal range of what it means to be human, why not simply hold the homosexual to exactly the same moral and ethical standards that we hold heterosexuals to? I regard the legalization of homosexual marriage as a most important step in that direction. I believe that this is the spirit of God continuing to work in our world.