Purgatory?

[Imalive]

That is not a verse on salvation. That is a verse given to those who are already saved.
This is not tough, yet, you seem to persist in misunderstanding.

Yes of course it is. He's not writing to unbelievers.

 

[MennoSota]

When Jesus told his disciples to go out and heal the sick did they do it because they thought it was work unto salvation or because it was the right thing to do?
So because I want to follow Christ as my example and become like Christ and be a living testimony for those who have known me, to fix my eyes on heavenly delights instead of worldy possession, to not lead others astray in producing bad fruit, for these things I am accused of "working for salvation". Brother we are on the same page but you are letting your boastful arrogance get the best of you. Don't tarry to pluck the mote out of my eye if you can't even see the beam in your own.
Being fruitful is not working for salvation its evidence of faith, please stop confusing them. If you hold so strongly against a brother in faith just because they are outside your denomination and feel you have to battle them unreasonably for the sake of your theological pride, then are you not condemning others on behalf of your works for your salvation?

For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Ephesians 2:10

Walking in good works...

Your entire comment about Jesus disciples has nothing to do with salvation. How can you be so bad at grasping God's word.

 

[MennoSota]

That's sanctification. Are you aware of the difference? This is why I think you're getting frustrated when talking with some of the members here.

No. He's not aware. He is struggling with drinking milk and solid food is impossible for him to digest.

 

[Andrew]

The law is perfect. It shows us our failure and judgment so we can see that God is just in condemning humanity.
The law shows us that being right with God can never be attained because we cannot keep every law. Just breaking one law brings judgment.
Our only hope of being pardoned is not by saying how sorry we are for breaking the law. No. The just judge must sentence us no matter how sorry we are.
Our only hope of being pardoned is by the just Judge, the King Himself, choosing to substitute his judgment upon someone else who will take my place. We need someone who will provide an unmerited favor to us by dying in our stead. Thanks be to God, it is the King, Himself, who suffers on our behalf and proves it is enough by rising from the dead. Amazingly, we do nothing to gain God's favor. Instead, God chooses to be gracious to whom he wills and God chooses to condemn whom he wills. That is what it means to be Sovereign and to rule over all creation.
Do you realize that God will never extend grace to the fallen angels? The Bible says that angels long to understand how a just God extends grace. They cannot comprehend it because it is something that God does not grant to angels. But, God has chosen to extend grace to those whom he elects to extend grace.
It is ALL God and nothing of us in the process of salvation. Any attempt to claim a role in our salvation is an act of extreme arrogance on our part. It is a rejection of God's amazing gift and a demand that we be given credit for our imaginary actions. It is, as Paul says, anathema! May God forbid.
Now...do you see why your claims are so aggregious? I only pray that God will open your eyes.

No God gives us the faithful works of repentance to keep his commandments.
The 10 commandments are not punishment, they are simple to keep for the faithful, love seems to be a tough one for most because they convict their own hearts to save others on behalf of their own theological standards rather than repentance and forgiveness.

 

[Imalive]

Milk is good for everyone, bit not for Jan, cause he doesn't like it. It rhimes in Dutch.
If anyone could only drink milk, why force meat through their throat anyway? You'd make a nice baby sitter.

 

[Andrew]

Your entire comment about Jesus disciples has nothing to do with salvation. How can you be so bad at grasping God's word.

Exactly it had do to with doing the right thing, now if I am to do the right thing you call it justification by works.
Oh uhhhh purgatory talk wink wink

 

[MennoSota]

No God gives us the faithful works of repentance to keep his commandments.
The 10 commandments are not punishment, they are simple to keep for the faithful, love seems to be a tough one for most because they convict their own hearts to save others on behalf of their own theological standards rather than repentance and forgiveness.

Does the law save you?

 

[MennoSota]

Exactly it had do to with doing the right thing, now if I am to do the right thing you call it justification by works.
Oh uhhhh purgatory talk wink wink

No. I call it doing the right thing. It has nothing to do with salvation, which is why you are so terribly mixed up.

 

[Albion]

Exactly it had do to with doing the right thing, now if I am to do the right thing you call it justification by works.
Oh uhhhh purgatory talk wink wink

What's that have to do with Purgatory?

 

[Andrew]

Does the law save you?

No but not keeping them is not loving God with all thine heart soul and body. We should keep them and uphold them in sanctity.

If ye love me, keep my commandments.
John 14:15

And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1 John 2:3

He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1 John 2:4

And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.
2 John 1:6

For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
Romans 2:13

 

[Andrew]

What's that have to do with Purgatory?

Nothing, Lam wants to redirect our discussion of Sanctity into a new thread.
"Purgatory" has been sifted down to "Justification/Sanctification"

 

[Andrew]

No. I call it doing the right thing. It has nothing to do with salvation, which is why you are so terribly mixed up.

Thank you amen! Its doing the right thing and not for salvation, you suggested that I am doing contrary when I have been saying this whole time that its fruitful works/deeds that come forth by faith not the other way around. (Not forcing the cart before the horse)

 

[MennoSota]

No but not keeping them is not loving God with all thine heart soul and body. We should keep them and uphold them in sanctity.

If ye love me, keep my commandments.
John 14:15

And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1 John 2:3

He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1 John 2:4

And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.
2 John 1:6

For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
Romans 2:13

If God has saved you by his grace then we show our love by following God's commands. Failure to follow, however, does not result in God removing his grace or his Spirit from your life.

 

[MennoSota]

Thank you amen! Its doing the right thing and not for salvation, you suggested that I am doing contrary when I have been saying this whole time that its fruitful works/deeds that come forth by faith not the other way around. (Not forcing the cart before the horse)

I point out that salvation is not by works. You keep adding works to salvation. When pushed on the matter you slide into sanctification rather than salvation. In essence, you don't know what you are talking about.

 

[Andrew]

I point out that salvation is not by works. You keep adding works to salvation. When pushed on the matter you slide into sanctification rather than salvation. In essence, you don't know what you are talking about.

Ok

 

[Albion]

MennoSota:

But in his post, the one you quoted in post 354, his statement seems clearly to agree with your view of the relationship of faith to works.

 

[Andrew]

If God has saved you by his grace then we show our love by following God's commands. Failure to follow, however, does not result in God removing his grace or his Spirit from your life.

If the Spirit convicts you however and you feel you have to run to a priest to forgive you say... "I had sex with another woman father forgive me!" you can simply drop to your knees pray mercy and forgiveness and repent, or suffer condemnation with that guilt unto your death. Penance tries to replace repentance, in fact older church issues of the bible have been caught replacing the word repentance with penance.
Repeating these offenses can cause you to completely backslide and it is possible for one to abandon his faith and even forsake his salvation through Christ. Repent or crucify the lord afresh, that is probably one of the strongest teachings I have read in the bible.
If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
Hebrews 6:6

Sorry i misread your post, no it does not take away grace or his Spirit your right

 

[MennoSota]

MennoSota:

But in his post, the one you quoted in post 354, his statement seems clearly to agree with your view of the relationship of faith to works.

Yes, DHoffmann, jumps back and forth. When I address the claim he makes that repentance is required for salvation and show that it is not, then he switches to after salvation, which I have always stated is an effect that comes after salvation.
Bottom line:
No works are required from God for God to extend unmerited favor. It is God's choice, always. Requiring repentance for salvation to be extended means that grace is removed and a merit-based salvation is created. That is never taught, despite the misuse of Acts 2 to state that repentance comes before salvation. Very simply, spiritually dead persons cannot repent until God makes their spirit come to life.

 

[MennoSota]

If the Spirit convicts you however and you feel you have to run to a priest to forgive you say... "I had sex with another woman father forgive me!" you can simply drop to your knees pray mercy and forgiveness and repent, or suffer condemnation with that guilt unto your death. Penance tries to replace repentance, in fact older church issues of the bible have been caught replacing the word repentance with penance.
Repeating these offenses can cause you to completely backslide and it is possible for one to abandon his faith and even forsake his salvation through Christ. Repent or crucify the lord afresh, that is probably one of the strongest teachings I have read in the bible.
If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
Hebrews 6:6

Sorry i misread your post, no it does not take away grace or his Spirit your right

Why would I go to a priest when Jesus is the one mediator between God and man?
Second, you misapply Hebrews 6.

 

[Lamb]

How about jumping over to the thread I made for this conversation about Justfication or Sanctification? http://www.christianityhaven.com/showthread.php?4529-Justifiation-or-Sanctification-Differences