Gift of Tongues

[MoreCoffee]

Calling God a trinity is borderline polytheism and definitely not monotheism, are we rejecting the God of Abraham?
Jesus is in Heaven united as one with the Father of the same Spirit, I call that Oneness.
Coffee since this is the 21rst century and not the 15th century i'll go with that, back then they were pretty much the same [emoji55]

The Holy Trinity is who Christians worship and who saves the faithful from their sins, from the world's fallen desires, and from Satan and his followers. Perhaps you have seen this before and will not pay it any attention but for the sake of your soul and for the mercy and grace of God in this place here is what the apostles taught the faithful to believe and what Christians continue to believe despite many errors that have assailed the truth. In the end the truth must triumph because God is Truth.

Whoever wishes to be saved must, above all, keep the Catholic faith.
For unless a person keeps this faith whole and entire, he will undoubtedly be lost forever.
This is what the Catholic faith teaches: we worship one God in the Trinity and the Trinity in unity.
Neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the substance.
For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, another of the Holy Spirit.
But the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit have one divinity, equal glory, and coeternal majesty.
What the Father is, the Son is, and the Holy Spirit is.
The Father is uncreated, the Son is uncreated, and the Holy Spirit is uncreated.
The Father is boundless, the Son is boundless, and the Holy Spirit is boundless.
The Father is eternal, the Son is eternal, and the Holy Spirit is eternal.
Nevertheless, there are not three eternal beings, but one eternal being.
So there are not three uncreated beings, nor three boundless beings, but one uncreated being and one boundless being.
Likewise, the Father is omnipotent, the Son is omnipotent, the Holy Spirit is omnipotent.
Yet there are not three omnipotent beings, but one omnipotent being.

Thus the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God.
However, there are not three gods, but one God.
The Father is Lord, the Son is Lord, and the Holy Spirit is Lord.
However, there as not three lords, but one Lord.
For as we are obliged by Christian truth to acknowledge every Person singly to be God and Lord, so too are we forbidden by the Catholic religion to say that there are three Gods or Lords.
The Father was not made, nor created, nor generated by anyone.
The Son is not made, nor created, but begotten by the Father alone.
The Holy Spirit is not made, nor created, nor generated, but proceeds from the Father and the Son.

There is, then, one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three sons; one Holy Spirit, not three holy spirits.
In this Trinity, there is nothing before or after, nothing greater or less. The entire three Persons are coeternal and coequal with one another.
So that in all things, as it has been said above, the Unity is to be worshipped in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity.
He, therefore, who wishes to be saved, must believe thus about the Trinity.

It is also necessary for eternal salvation that he believes steadfastly in the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Thus the right faith is that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is both God and man.

As God, He was begotten of the substance of the Father before time; as man, He was born in time of the substance of His Mother.
He is perfect God; and He is perfect man, with a rational soul and human flesh.
He is equal to the Father in His divinity, but inferior to the Father in His humanity.
Although He is God and man, He is not two, but one Christ.
And He is one, not because His divinity was changed into flesh, but because His humanity was assumed unto God.
He is one, not by a mingling of substances, but by unity of person.
As a rational soul and flesh are one man: so God and man are one Christ.
He died for our salvation, descended into hell, and rose from the dead on the third day.
He ascended into heaven, sits at the right hand of God the Father almighty. From there He shall come to judge the living and the dead.
At His coming, all men are to arise with their own bodies; and they are to give an account of their own deeds.
Those who have done good deeds will go into eternal life; those who have done evil will go into the everlasting fire.
This is the Catholic faith. Everyone must believe it, firmly and steadfastly; otherwise He cannot be saved.

Amen.
​

We say amen because these things are true and our heart felt desire and prayer to God is that our confession of faith will take root in our hearts and conform us to the image of Christ our Lord.

 

[psalms 91]

Do you agree that Jesus was God come to earth? If so then reconcile Genesis verse one which says in the beginning was the Word (Jesus) and the Word was with God, and the Word was God

 

[MoreCoffee]

Do you agree that Jesus was God come to earth? If so then reconcile Genesis verse one which says in the beginning was the Word (Jesus) and the Word was with God, and the Word was God

Genesis verse one says "In the beginning when God created the heavens and the earth" but The Gospel according to saint John says in its first verse " In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God"

 

[MennoSota]

Calling God a trinity is borderline polytheism and definitely not monotheism, are we rejecting the God of Abraham?
Jesus is in Heaven united as one with the Father of the same Spirit, I call that Oneness.
Coffee since this is the 21rst century and not the 15th century i'll go with that, back then they were pretty much the same [emoji55]

Not even close to the same. You have a corrupt view of Yeshua, Jesus, and thus misrepresent God.

 

[MennoSota]

Of course he can. It doesn't matter at all for salvation. The Trinity teaching keeps Jews away from their Messiah. As if God is gonna ask a 3 y o kid that dies if it can exactly explain the Trinity doctrin like the creed said in order to be allowed into heaven. That's nonsense. It doesnt matter. All that the Bible says is if you believe w your heart Jesus is Lord and confess w your mouth that God raised Him from the dead you will be saved.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4et_yrjlpbc

The Jews say you may not worship a man. So he shows em Jesus was a walking Shekinah, cause they do believe Gods glory could be in a temple from stones, so why not in a human Body.

It matters that a person lowers Jesus to a status that is inferior. The apostles strongly spoke against gnosticism, which is what DHoffmann is teaching.
If Jews reject the deity of Christ as being God incarnate, they reject Yeshua. Clearly the Spirit of God cannot have made them alive in Christ.

 

[MoreCoffee]

This is worth a viewing

God is Love the holy scriptures teach us to believe. How can that be if God has no one to love? Yet God is Love says the scripture. Who then does God love for all eternity?

 

[Imalive]

It matters that a person lowers Jesus to a status that is inferior. The apostles strongly spoke against gnosticism, which is what DHoffmann is teaching.
If Jews reject the deity of Christ as being God incarnate, they reject Yeshua. Clearly the Spirit of God cannot have made them alive in Christ.

Michael Brown believes Trinity, he just explains it in a way they understand. He doesn't deny Christ being God incarnate. He's a saved Jew and he speaks in tongues lol.

 

[Albion]

Michael Brown believes Trinity, he just explains it in a way they understand.

So.....

to put it in the way that anti-Trinitarians usually do, somebody just made it up.

Are we supposed to think that what Michael Brown says is just fine, but if many of the worlds Christian leaders do the same thing in a council nd produce the Nicene Creed, it means nothing??

 

[Imalive]

So.....

to put it in the way that anti-Trinitarians usually do, somebody just made it up.

Are we supposed to think that what Michael Brown says is just fine, but if many of the worlds Christian leaders do the same thing in a council nd produce the Nicene Creed, it means nothing??

It's all fine as long as they don't go against the Bible and make new rules which are not in the Bible. If Michael Brown says that you're only saved if you confess Jesus is a walking Shekinah that'd be not fine.

 

[Albion]

It's all fine as long as they don't go against the Bible and make new rules which are not in the Bible. If Michael Brown says that you're only saved if you confess Jesus is a walking Shekinah that'd be not fine.

Then the "problem" I am seeing is that any teaching that the speaker doesnt want to hear is summarily dismissed with the comment, "they just made it up."

In truth, they did not just make up something; they cited the Bible and drew from the Bible.

In other words, the comment that someone just invented (whatever it happens to be) is more like a cop-out or brush off than a serious evaluation.

 

[Imalive]

Then the "problem" I am seeing is that any teaching that the speaker doesnt want to hear is summarily dismissed with the comment, "they just made it up."

In truth, they did not just make up something; they cited the Bible and drew from the Bible.

In other words, the comment that someone just invented (whatever it happens to be) is more like a cop-out or brush off than a serious evaluation.

Where is it in the Bible that in order to be saved one must believe the Father and the Holy Spirit and Jesus are 3 distinct Persons? I can see in the Bible He's 3 Persons but I cant see its essential for being saved, just like you can't say: only if you speak in tongues you are filled w the Holy Spirit. Someone made that up too.

 

[Josiah]

Where is it in the Bible that in order to be saved one must believe the Father and the Holy Spirit and Jesus are 3 distinct Persons? I can see in the Bible He's 3 Persons but I cant see its essential for being saved, just like you can't say: only if you speak in tongues you are filled w the Holy Spirit. Someone made that up too.

I see your point.

I think the Athanasian Creed needs to be seen in its historic context on this point. I agree with you, friend, that not articulating the Trinity as the Creed does would not exclude someone from Heaven and I don't think anyone takes that (interprets that) in THAT specific sense. In the early Middle Ages, when this Creed came to it's (sorta) form we know it, there was little distinction between doctrine and faith (indeed, some Catholics STILL blur this). The point was the other way around, one who DOES have faith embraces what God Himself so clearly stated: God is Three yet God is one, He is a Tri (3) unity (1). I don't think it can be reversed so as to say, "One who articulates and cognatively affirms the Athansian Creed thus is saved and has faith." I agree the Creed could be seen that way but that's not how it is viewed by Christians (well, except for a few Catholics). Our brain doesn't save us, Christ saves us. Affirming dogma doesn't save, Jesus saves. BUT, historically, Christians have connected them so that one who has faith (and salvation) believes correctly. I wouldn't make that connection as strongly as some, but that is a historic point in Christianity.



But let's return to the discussion HERE, that of "Tongues"

Here's a current discussion of the Trinity: http://www.christianityhaven.com/showthread.php?4432-The-Triune-God




My half cent.


- Josiah



.

 

[Albion]

Where is it in the Bible that in order to be saved one must believe the Father and the Holy Spirit and Jesus are 3 distinct Persons? I can see in the Bible He's 3 Persons but I cant see its essential for being saved, just like you can't say: only if you speak in tongues you are filled w the Holy Spirit. Someone made that up too.

There are several and they were discussed somewhere on these forums just yesterday, as I recall now, but I think this page handles the topic pretty well--

https://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/jesusnotfather.htm

 

[Imalive]

There are several and they were discussed somewhere on these forums just yesterday, as I recall now, but I think this page handles the topic pretty well--

https://www.evangelicaloutreach.org/jesusnotfather.htm

The United Pentecostals will sometimes argue that a person can be both a father and a son (as well as a husband) and all at the same time. While this may be true on occasions in the natural, such a person is never a father, a son (and husband) to the same person.


But all 3 are YHWH: I am.
I am the Father.
I am the Son (Yeshua means I am Saviour)
I am YHWH the Holy Spirit.
So the Same Person (I am, not: We are) is all 3 Persons in this case.
Thus I think trinitarians are so focused on 3 Persons, they can't see He's one Person also and the United pentecostals and some Messianic Jews can only see He is one Person and not also 3 and then they come with things like Essence or Manifestations. Jesus was all 3 in one, called eternal Father.
Why do they make it so complicated? The Kingdom of God is for kids to understand.
I wonder if there is any trinitarian who would say Jesus was 3 Persons in one and He looked and acted like one Person I must say, or would you call Him a Trinity?

 

[MoreCoffee]

The United Pentecostals will sometimes argue that a person can be both a father and a son (as well as a husband) and all at the same time. ...

But that's modalism which is what UPCI teaches.

 

[Albion]

The United Pentecostals will sometimes argue that a person can be both a father and a son (as well as a husband) and all at the same time. While this may be true on occasions in the natural, such a person is never a father, a son (and husband) to the same person.

Good point.

But all 3 are YHWH: I am.
I am the Father.
I am the Son (Yeshua means I am Saviour)
I am YHWH the Holy Spirit.
So the Same Person (I am, not: We are) is all 3 Persons in this case.

It seems to be that your confusion is over the meaning of the word persons (or, more accurately, persona). It emphatically does not mean separate individual beings and the Creed-writers took pains to keep that straight.

Thus I think trinitarians are so focused on 3 Persons, they can't see He's one Person also and the United pentecostals and some Messianic Jews can only see He is one Person and not also 3 and then they come with things like Essence or Manifestations. Jesus was all 3 in one, called eternal Father.

Again, persons doesnt mean a gathering of individuals, making God something like a committee.

 

[Josiah]

THIS discussion concerns "Tongues"

Here's a current discussion of the Trinity: http://www.christianityhaven.com/showthread.php?4432-The-Triune-God




.

 

[Albion]

Sorry. I tend to just answer them as they come. I oughtn't do that.

But it does seem as though we have been dealing lately with one amorphous topic of Unitarianism & Pentecostalism that wanders back and forth across the threads.

Wouldn't it be great if we could start up some new threads in the theology area...and also find a way to get our many (it seems) Guests to actually join as members? I wonder how to accomplish that.

 

[Andrew]

Why the heck am I being called a Gnostic? Thats the silliest attempt of a put down I have ever heard lol
For your information, absolutely everything you are calling me you are also calling it to the Apostles in that its a FACT that the trinity was not taught until sometime later long after the apostles death, the word trinity wasnt even a recorded word until 170ad and even then was not used to describe God.
For those who condemn be for not accepting a 3rd century teaching are you not condemning those before the teaching? This is man trying to be God to condemn someone eternally for not accepting their man made idea that came 300 years After Christ work on the cross!
Are they not condemning believers over a man made creed that the apostles never heard of?
And how does it make sense that 1 can be 3 but 3 cant be one?

Its even in the creed that the trinity is unity but condemn me for saying the same. Hypocrites!

 

[Albion]

You seem to be angered when people take what you say you believe and give it the appropriate and normal term for such a belief. And there's never a real rebuttal offered, no replies that might show the observation to be in error.

There are usually just some irrelevant statements about Constantine or something else that have obviously been picked up from people in church or elsewhere. Help us out with a real give and take on the substance of some of these ideas.